Curse

Esan · Feb 19, 2008, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Guild Wars is neither PvE nor PvP. Given the deplorable status of the player community, it is PwH/H (Player with Heroes/Henchmen). Interacting with other players, particularly strangers, requires a level of tolerance I no longer possess after nearly three years of playing the same old game.

Spaced Invader · Feb 19, 2008, 01:16 AM // 01:16

In my humblest of all opinions, Guild Wars started out as a rather PvP-centered game with a PvE side dish.

Closed Alpha (and Beta) were usually all about PvP-balancing and PvP testing sessions. PvE balancing/feedback sessions were rather rare (although when release came closer, PvE and PvP sessions almost evened out).
Still, GW was clearly a PvP-centered game when it was released.

One year later, Factions brought both, new PvP AND PvE elements. While at that time often considered as a "PvP-based Chapter" I find that only half-true. Let's not forget that Factions also brought us what nowadays is the main incentive for PvE players: Titles.

Then Nightfall was released. Supposedly a more PvE-centric chapter, and that it was. Hero Battles aside, it brought us tons of PvE-only content. And with the new Hero system, PvE became more and more popular.
No more relying on crappy PUGs. No more uncontrollable Henchies. No more waiting in empty Isles of Fire outposts for hours to do the last 3 missions (of course, at this point GW not only turned into a PvE-centered game, but also to a single player game).
And then the DoA and more important the Hard Mode were introduced, and PvE became yet even more popular.

GW:EN finally brought another crapload of PvE-ONLY content. Including the Hall of Monuments, to import all your PvE achievements into the upcoming Guild Wars 2.

So yes, in my opinion Guild Wars did a classic 180°.
From a PvP-focused game with some PvE, to a PvE-focused game with some PvP.

The thing with PvP in Guild Wars is, that it is heavily group based. Without a good guild it's not only hard to succeed, it's impossible to even *start* PvPing in the first place.
All you can do as a solo player (or a player who is new to the game) is doing Hero Battles (which are no "real" PvP at all) and Random Arena (which is just a testing playground). Probably Team Arena, but that's about it.

I guess that's one of the reasons why A.Net decided to go for Guild Wars 2.
To create an environment that allows for a more PvE-centric game (more persistent areas, higher level cap) since that's obviously what the majority of GW players wanted.
And to allow open PvP, which is highly popular and more casual/solo gamer friendly.

Gigashadow · Feb 19, 2008, 01:46 AM // 01:46

GW started off as a mainly PvP game. However, PvE became way more popular with the playerbase, so that is where they concentrated their efforts.

Snow Bunny · Feb 19, 2008, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

I'd say that Guild Wars is a PvE game, although Anet still thinks it's a PvP game.

The reason why most people stay with PvE is the PvP'ers mentality. Basically if your account doesn't start with instant r6 and r3 champion, you can't find a group and you'll just get farmed for fame. No one says "GG" after a match, it's only "Pve this way scrubs" or "lawl pve moar" and insults.

We have real life if we want arrogant, rude people thumping their noses down at us. Why should we put up with 7+ months of verbal abuse just so that we can join the group of the people who abuse the newbies?

It's like high school cliques. You've got the top dogs who will go out of their way to bully anything and everything they can get. To join them, you have to like what they like, do what they do, think how they think, and agree with what they believe.

My main problem with PvP is what happens when guildies/friends leave PvE behind, and run off with PvP friends. They spam up your whisper/GC/AC with "LOL we're against this guild!" or "LOL WE GOT SPIKED" or "Woot I'm almost r6!" or "Yay, another fame!" or "Look we're in halls!" when frankly the majority of us don't care.

I'm not even going to lie. How did people get Rank 3 Champion? I'd like to know.

We all started out somewhere. Yes, there are 12 year olds running around with R12 accts they purchased illegally. But they don't get anywhere, because they can't perform at their rank.

Competition and supplication are part of honest progress. You think Apple creates highly innovative software because they feel like it? No, they strive to produce superior hardware because they desire to be the best.

It's why I hate it when I see these pathetic no-name guilds as Guild of the Week. Who cares about the 'Knights of Vicious Valour" or whatever they're called. Who cares that they can farm? Everyone can. The best GotW was when [cow] was interviewed, and one of the comments was: to make a mess out of every other player in this game. Such tenacity. That's what gets you places.

/sigh, I'm out. People obviously don't understand how progress works.

Sab · Feb 19, 2008, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

I'd say that Guild Wars is a PvE game, although Anet still thinks it's a PvP game.

The reason why most people stay with PvE is the PvP'ers mentality. Basically if your account doesn't start with instant r6 and r3 champion, you can't find a group and you'll just get farmed for fame. No one says "GG" after a match, it's only "Pve this way scrubs" or "lawl pve moar" and insults.

We have real life if we want arrogant, rude people thumping their noses down at us. Why should we put up with 7+ months of verbal abuse just so that we can join the group of the people who abuse the newbies?

It's like high school cliques. You've got the top dogs who will go out of their way to bully anything and everything they can get. To join them, you have to like what they like, do what they do, think how they think, and agree with what they believe.

My main problem with PvP is what happens when guildies/friends leave PvE behind, and run off with PvP friends. They spam up your whisper/GC/AC with "LOL we're against this guild!" or "LOL WE GOT SPIKED" or "Woot I'm almost r6!" or "Yay, another fame!" or "Look we're in halls!" when frankly the majority of us don't care.

I don't know where you got the notion that PvPers are generally rude - they're not. Maybe in the scrub arenas they are, but the majority of PvPers I know aren't the people you're describing. People don't become top PvPers by trash talking - they get there by getting good at the game. Being good doesn't lead to being arrogant, nor is the opposite true.

While I'm quite sure there are assholes in PvP, the same can be said for PvE. I run into them when I'm trading in Kamadan, on the rare occasions that I pug, or just plain spamming in local chat of some town I'm passing by. Arrogance (or people spamming you) isn't confined to just PvP, so I not really convinced that's a good reason to avoid PvP.

Zahr Dalsk · Feb 19, 2008, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

I don't know where you got the notion that PvPers are generally rude - they're not. Maybe in the scrub arenas they are, but the majority of PvPers I know aren't the people you're describing. People don't become top PvPers by trash talking - they get there by getting good at the game. Being good doesn't lead to being arrogant, nor is the opposite true.

While I'm quite sure there are assholes in PvP, the same can be said for PvE. I run into them when I'm trading in Kamadan, on the rare occasions that I pug, or just plain spamming in local chat of some town I'm passing by. Arrogance (or people spamming you) isn't confined to just PvP, so I not really convinced that's a good reason to avoid PvP.

I think most of us know that the worst of the PvPers are in Heroes' Ascent.

Sab · Feb 19, 2008, 07:08 AM // 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I think most of us know that the worst of the PvPers are in Heroes' Ascent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

scrub arena

121212121212

Hell Raiser · Feb 19, 2008, 07:14 AM // 07:14

I got this from here

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike O'Brien

When I talk to people who are really hard core role players in Guild Wars, they say “I love the role playing aspects of Guild Wars, but I don’t think many people like to play the PvP aspects you’ve built in”. And then I talk to big PvP fans and they go: “Oh I love Guild Wars, but I’m not sure that anybody plays it as a role playing game.”

QFT.
High-end PvP players think that this game revolves around PvP, High-end PvE players think it revolves around PvE. Imho, neither one of them is playing the game for fun, but just to feel better about themselves.
Personally, I think the game was made for both.

arsie · Feb 19, 2008, 07:21 AM // 07:21

I think GW can now be played 100% PvE or 100% PvP. I think the majority of the players play 80-90% of one, while fewer people straddle both aspects equally.

What do you want to play?

Kashrlyyk · Feb 19, 2008, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Raiser

I got this from here

QFT.
High-end PvP players think that this game revolves around PvP, High-end PvE players think it revolves around PvE. Imho, neither one of them is playing the game for fun, but just to feel better about themselves.
Personally, I think the game was made for both.

QFT. Personally I would like to know what "role playing aspects" they found in GW!

Taurucis · Feb 19, 2008, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

I'm not even going to lie. How did people get Rank 3 Champion? I'd like to know.

Very, very slowly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

We all started out somewhere. Yes, there are 12 year olds running around with R12 accts they purchased illegally. But they don't get anywhere, because they can't perform at their rank.

We all started somewhere, but these days you have to have rank 6 before you can get a group. You need a group to get fame. You need fame to get rank 6. You see where I'm going? What do you expect us to do, wind back the clock a couple years and fame farm from there?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Competition and supplication are part of honest progress. You think Apple creates highly innovative software because they feel like it? No, they strive to produce superior hardware because they desire to be the best.

Do you think Apple verbally abuses Microsoft?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

It's why I hate it when I see these pathetic no-name guilds as Guild of the Week. Who cares about the 'Knights of Vicious Valour" or whatever they're called. Who cares that they can farm? Everyone can. The best GotW was when [cow] was interviewed, and one of the comments was: to make a mess out of every other player in this game. Such tenacity. That's what gets you places.

I've never cared for GotW. And that [cow] guild sounds like the arrogant PvP trash that people complain about. This is a game we were meant to enjoy together not some turf war where you stamp everyone else out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

I don't know where you got the notion that PvPers are generally rude - they're not. Maybe in the scrub arenas they are, but the majority of PvPers I know aren't the people you're describing.

You probably don't know many PvPers. The last time I did HA for earnest, we lost in Underworld and instead of "gg" we got "This way to ascalon" "pve moar scrubz" "lol fail" and tiger spiked. My group ran... oh, about 7, 8 times... and only once did we get an honest "gg and gl" from the opposing team. The other teams were foulmouthed, arrogant, and just plain rude.

There was this PvP guild I was once in, a few of the people were quite nice... Except for this corrupt little asstard. He got some offer "Kick the pve scrubs out of your guild and you'll get a place in my r9+ hardcore pvp guild" and went through with it. What makes you think I can like PvPers after that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

People don't become top PvPers by trash talking - they get there by getting good at the game. Being good doesn't lead to being arrogant, nor is the opposite true.

They become trash talkers when they become top PvPers, I'd say. It's like the deal you get with those online FPS games, there's a bigger ego boost when you know that you just beat down real people and rub their faces in the dirt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

While I'm quite sure there are assholes in PvP, the same can be said for PvE. I run into them when I'm trading in Kamadan, on the rare occasions that I pug, or just plain spamming in local chat of some town I'm passing by.

Yeah, but in PvE you can just map away, zone into the district, turn off chat... with PvP you'll have to face the same egomaniacs over and over again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Arrogance (or people spamming you) isn't confined to just PvP, so I not really convinced that's a good reason to avoid PvP.

It's not confined to PvP. It's mostly in PvP. I get enough verbal abuse in real life. I don't want to put up with any arrogant 12 year old's crap online. I play GW to succeed, not win, and PvP is pretty much the You Lose arena.

Hell Raiser · Feb 19, 2008, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

...

QFT*10.
89012

Bryant Again · Feb 19, 2008, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Just gonna point out a few things:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

You probably don't know many PvPers.

She lives for HA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

They become trash talkers when they become top PvPers, I'd say. It's like the deal you get with those online FPS games, there's a bigger ego boost when you know that you just beat down real people and rub their faces in the dirt.

See, now I rarely have experiences with assholes in online shooters. In Counter-Strike I've only had like 10 servers where assholeness was prominent but they were usually bad players. In TF2 I've had about one bad experience like this, and again the players sucked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

It's not confined to PvP. It's mostly in PvP.

Experiences vary. I'll say myself that some of the worst people I've known in GW have come from PUGs in PvE.

Taurucis · Feb 19, 2008, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

She lives for HA.

Poor, poor her.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

See, now I rarely have experiences with assholes in online shooters. In Counter-Strike I've only had like 10 servers where assholeness was prominent but they were usually bad players. In TF2 I've had about one bad experience like this, and again the players sucked.

Well, I used to play Legends of Might and Magic... man, the community was bad. Couldn't go around without rude statements, bad jokes, teabagging, and immature jerks.

I also heard that Halo 3 has a lot of jerks, but I've never played it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Experiences vary. I'll say myself that some of the worst people I've known in GW have come from PUGs in PvE.

What goes for you, might not go for everyone else. Personally I find most of the jerks in HA/RA. I find the PvE community to be quite nice, because it's easier to see who will be immature in PvE than PvP.

Snow Bunny · Feb 19, 2008, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

Very, very slowly.

No, it didn't take me very very slowly, it took me a relatively short while Taurucis. You get your friends to HA/GvG with you and get better together. That way you grow a core group of adept players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

We all started somewhere, but these days you have to have rank 6 before you can get a group. You need a group to get fame. You need fame to get rank 6. You see where I'm going? What do you expect us to do, wind back the clock a couple years and fame farm from there?

You farmed hours to get your armbraces. I waited hours to get into HA groups and gain fame. What has appreciated over time? Your armbraces have gone down in value, as has pretty much everything in PvE, while most people still acknowledge my /rank as something worthwhile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

Do you think Apple verbally abuses Microsoft?

Yes, they do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

I've never cared for GotW. And that [cow] guild sounds like the arrogant PvP trash that people complain about. This is a game we were meant to enjoy together not some turf war where you stamp everyone else out.

I enjoy stamping everyone else out. Playing together with my friends. Competition is fierce, but relatively friendly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

It's not confined to PvP. It's mostly in PvP. I get enough verbal abuse in real life. I don't want to put up with any arrogant 12 year old's crap online. I play GW to succeed, not win, and PvP is pretty much the You Lose arena.

You really haven't been in enough PvE alliances to know where the hubris of the playerbase lies.

Oh, and to say Sab doesn't know many PvPers really shows how little you know.

Taurucis · Feb 19, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

No, it didn't take me very very slowly, it took me a relatively short while Taurucis. You get your friends to HA/GvG with you and get better together. That way you grow a core group of adept players.

Most people would probably give up before you got too far. I, for one, wouldn't care to spend months of my life trying to get a title that the higher-ups will still disregard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

You farmed hours to get your armbraces. I waited hours to get into HA groups and gain fame. What has appreciated over time? Your armbraces have gone down in value, as has pretty much everything in PvE, while most people still ackowledge my /rank as something worthwhile.

A year ago, it used to be that you had to be r3+ before you could get a group. Now it's r6+.

I farm armbraces to get what I want, not what I want to sell. I get items that I think will look good, so I'll probably trade in my Armbrace for a tormented shield that I'll be using, not selling. I bought a Miniature Mallyx for 100k, 36e, and 6 lockpicks, the price has gone down a little but I don't care - I'm keeping the little Margonite Monkey, I like him and I don't plan to sell him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Yes, they do.

Does Apple really send people to Microsoft with hate mail, verbal abuse, and post advertisements saying that Microsoft is a bunch of no-good losers? Isn't that libel?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

I enjoy stamping everyone else out. Playing together with my friends. Competition is fierce, but relatively friendly.

Whatever boosts your ego. I'm not one who enjoys pushing others down in order to raise myself up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

You really haven't been in enough PvE alliances to know where the hubris of the playerbase lies.

Actually, I have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Oh, and to say Sab doesn't know many PvPers really shows how little you know.

^ Attitudes like this are the main reason why people hate Pvpers.

I don't know Sab personally, what do you think I do, stalk people? It doesn't matter to me if she plays HA, GvG, or farms Maguuma Jungle for plant fiber.

Bryant Again · Feb 19, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

Poor, poor her.

i.e. She plays a lot of PvP, and knows a shit load about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

What goes for you, might not go for everyone else.

...Which is essentially why you can't make such broad comments about how certain communities act.

Taurucis · Feb 19, 2008, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

...Which is essentially why you can't make such broad comments about how certain communities act.

Tell you what dear, you go to all the PvPers who say that anyone who plays PvE is a scrub and tell them that <3

Snow Bunny · Feb 19, 2008, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

snip

You didn't actually say anything.

But whatever. You keep making broad generalizations about Pvpers. This discussion is fairly hopeless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

Tell you what dear, you go to all the PvPers who say that anyone who plays PvE is a scrub and tell them that <3

Most PvPers PvE frequently. That's why you see them running around in high-end GvG with FoW and bandanas.

I'll continue pushing down others to push myself up. It's normally the way you go around successfully elevating yourself. It's how balance is kept.

Taurucis · Feb 19, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

You didn't actually say anything.

But whatever. You keep making broad generalizations about Pvpers. This discussion is fairly hopeless.

Most PvPers PvE frequently. That's why you see them running around in high-end GvG with FoW and bandanas

When about 90% of the community acts a certain way, I'd say it's roughly fair to generalize...

They just farm enough to get that stuff, flash their ebayed tigers, and run back off to PvP land.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

I'll continue pushing down others to push myself up. It's normally the way you go around successfully elevating yourself. It's how balance is kept.

So basically, you'd beat a homeless person up in order to take the 70 cents that he/she has? I see. That's very balanced. About as balanced as Guild Wars is.